| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
r0177v31
Newbie
USA
56 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2007 : 21:37:55
|
Hey all, just wanted to get your thoughts on what are effective countermeasures to deal with these. (Using control instead of just hitting, if you can.)
I've been practicing with my friend lately and I'm thinking about what I can do to control him rather than just hit, (don't really want to hurt him, you know). I can give him problems if I stay in a side stance since he has to work harder for a leg if he wants it, and when he does get through I make it difficult for him to bring me down to the ground. (The sinking/balancing from Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma definitely helped, as well as all the footwork training; I also noticed the Brazilian Ju-Jitsu things Pete showed in class worked well if I was taken to the ground and on my back.) Anybody have any experience going against a grappler? Just wanted to get everyone's views on this..
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
-Ron
|
|
|
r0177v31
Newbie
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 19:59:34
|
| Does anybody recommend sprawling? I've been taught how to do it, but I'm not so sure about using it on pavement (and banging my knees). |
 |
|
|
RichW.
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 17:13:11
|
Well... I find myself asking the same questions. I know you probably mean control such as wrist locks and arm bars. However, my mindset is this... I am a Wing Chun man and a stand up fighter and stand up grappler etc.
I think the best way to control someone when they shoot in to a leg grab(and get the shoot in)... sink, pivot or whatever and grab the earlobe and pull him to the ground. I would grab a hand full of hair and lead him to the ground. As for sprawling... I like my knees roadrash free.
|
|
|
|
r0177v31
Newbie
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 12:28:51
|
Yeah, I know what you mean; it's just that at times I'm thinking.. "I've never really seen a good WC man go against a grappler/other stylist, etc., how would the WC man deal w/ this without looking outside of WC for answers?" (It's much harder than I thought.) That's why I've been trying to practice w/ ppl from various backgrounds, just to figure out things for myself and get a better understanding of not only myself and WC, but other methods so I can familiarize myself with them and (possibly) defend against them if they come up in the future.
Yup, I agree w/ you on the sprawling, it seems to be that it was designed with a soft surface in mind.
As for control, I understand what you mean. (Had to think a while about this.. I know, ideally we don't want to hurt anybody, but if the situation calls for it..) With that said then, the WC man's aim isn't to just get our opponent into wrist locks/arm bars, it's to use the control to open up our striking options to end the fight in the most quick and efficient way (whether that be escaping or finishing). Any other thoughts on this? Thx for the input Rich. = ) |
|
|
|
RichW.
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 18:04:20
|
I think since the first debut of the UFC alot of martial artists have found themselves asking the same questions, such as, "how would I do against a grappler" etc.
Before the UFC it was always Southern Fist to Southern Fist at tournaments etc. (or whatever division). So alot of Kung Fu people never saw or were exposed to grappling arts like Judo or Jujitsu in any form.
I remember reading a wing chun article(can't remember the Sifu) that said "don't look outside of WC for answers".
The point he was trying to make was simple... everyone now asks "how do I fight a UFC grappler" and since WC doesn't have much ground fighting people think they must look to BJJ. Which I think is a good style( I like most styles). When the answer is really right in front of all wing chun artists. Chi Sao standing up can be done the same way on the ground. I have tried this and it is more difficult and would require alot of practice. However, it worked... a pak sao is still a pak sao.
Oddly enough, BJJ people are looking to WC for alot of answers now. Goto youtube and there are videos of Gracies and Samuel Kwok showing how the two style compliment each other, and how Gracies respect WC and its philosophy.
So all of us standup fighters wonder what happens if we are taken to the ground, but the ground fighters want to know what to do if we keep them standing up(pretty cool).
Maybe let your friend take you to the ground so you can try your WC on the ground. However, please ask Sifu what he thinks. I am only throwing out ideas etc.
|
|
|
|
najoha75
Administrator
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 05:03:38
|
I'd recently met a very nice baguazhang/shuaijiao practitioner. We spent about three hours, maybe more, play-fighting, agreeing to "play our own game". He had greater skill than I, so it was a wonderful learning experience for me... hopefully he learned too. I recall one point in the evening he had struck and I answered with bong sau. He stopped fast and began explaining the error in my structure. I asked him to show me, and so he began adjusting my bong sau structure into a baguazhang structure. He said, "your first structure [bong] can't express power, but this one [how he adjusted me--a lan sau, more or less] can express a lot of power. I simply said, "that structure wasn't trying to express power, just deflecting." He thought it deflected well, but advised I favor the other. I recalled the "play our own game" agreement!
Wing Chun needs to be played exactly and only like Wing Chun--a combat art abiding Wing Chun principles and methodologies. Wing Chun would really lose its spirit if it were played according to another art's principles or was conformed to sport regulation. Regarding heavily regulated sport fighting, I'd think too much time focused on training Wing Chun for such sporting circumstance could corrupt one's Wing Chun development. One might inadvertently play "by the rules" in a circumstance without rules! Wing Chun emerged and was passed down with consideration of the no-rules circumstance. IMO, Wing Chun should be trained with the same consideration (and with great self-control).
So... I didn't really attempt to answer your question... =) |
Edited by - najoha75 on 10/09/2007 05:10:23 |
|
|
|
pete
Administrator
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 13:09:44
|
Great discussion guys... hmmmmmmmmm. well.. first of all what is your mindset? If you are competing in a tournament with rules and gloves then that is one thing. If you are ttying to save your life, that is something else. In the ring, you are trying to score points in order to "win" on the street you are trying to "live". This is an important distinction because in the ring I have no fear of death and will "play the game" in order to maximize my chances of victory. In short, I will take risks, place my body close to the opponent and get a chance to rest between rounds. There is no doubt that the ring can teach great combat attributes. But on the street I am trying to survive. That means I will take no risks (unless I am forced to - e.g. multiple attackers). That means, and as I tell my guys, I apply the hurricane rule - the two safest places to be in a Hurricane are far away or in the eye. That means I keep my opponent at a safe distance (eliminating his ability to shoot) until he is overexposed on an attack launched from to far away. At that point I close the gap and don't stop until I have destroyed the attacker. In the street I also try to use my terrain to my advantage (e.g. putting a car between myself on the aggressor) and to deescalate the emotion of the event. Saying all that and assuming for some reason the attacker caught me off guard (e.g. a side attack in a crowded bar) then as in everything wing chun, you need to establish a bridge and flow with the attackers energy. The first move in the dummy form is a good example of establishing a bridge quickly. If some one attacks low you need to adjust your structure to deal with incoming force. For people that shoot on me I usually redirect their head (i.e. where the head goes the body follows) away from me and then adjust based on the changed structure of my attacker. If I flow him away and then he is stiff and is trying to regroup for a counter attack I will follow him and throw 2,000 punches until the threat is gone (OK...that was a stretch but you get the idea). If I flow him away and he rolls on the ground I will create hyper distance the opposite direction (unless there are others reasons for me not to - e.g. he is attacking and my wife, family or friends). Does he have a weapon? Does he have friends? That also changes teh paradigm. The bottom line is that in the street you want to stay on your feet. It is not a game. It is life or death. Keep your distance and only fight if you must. But when you do, clash fiercely for doing anything less could lead to death.
Pete |
|
|
|
pete
Administrator
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 13:23:16
|
I forgot one thing. My involvement in NJJ was to get a better idea of how they flow (And they do). The distinction is that they use the ground to trap you into submission. While standing you can always flow backwards, on the ground you can't. But you still have to establish a bridge (in concept) that does not use force. The most important thing is to make sure you aren't mounted and to conserve your energy. Typical BJJ guys shoot and then use their body position to ensure you can't rest while they do. Also, the feet are a lot more involved and you need to be aware of the energy flow of the body, arms and legs. The one thing they do very well is take advantage of your mistakes and attack joints and do chokes very efficiently.Having an awareness of the ground is very important IMHO. But the one thing I know is that if I end up on the ground, I haven't done my job. WC, applied correctly, should never get you on the ground. I had fun in one class where the teacher had students try to take me down via the shoot (more practice for them but having hte teacher know I did WC he wanted to give the guys a harder test. Let's just put it this way, I was finally taken down because I was tired, not because they were able to shoot me. The bottom line is that I forced them to shoot from a distance they were comfortable with. Then, I just guided them into the ground. I nthe street I never would have even been that close I suspect. but it was fun. ;-)
Pete |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Countering takedowns/grappling
